george1234 <george1234pds[at]excite.com> wrote:

- quote -

I would recommend that you at least supplement the At with oral
antibiotics of the same type.
SP
--
Take out the TRAASH to reply

george1234 <george1234pds[at]excite.com> wrote:

- quote -

Often happens when the patient is a smoker: the smoke products act as
antiinflammatory agents, but also hinder or block healing.

SP
--
Take out the TRAASH to reply

george1234 wrote:

- quote -

Thanks for the update.
Do remember that raw pocket readings do not tell the whole story.
Change in pocket depth combined with attachment levels over time gives a
much better idea of disease activity. In any case, pocket depth
reduction is a good sign.

Best,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:19:48 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldmung[at]dentaltwins.com> wrote:

- quote -

Thank you Steve for your help on this matter

I had a perio exam, ~6 months after I first posted to this group
(after a periodontist recommended 4 quadrant osseous surgery post
SRP)

Now, Pocket depth ( and cal) mostly is in the 2-3 range with an
occasional dip on the back to 5 I'm looking at the chart now... those
rows of 212 and 222 are encouraging. My understanding is anything 3
or less is considered healthy

Also.. my understanding is that you are looking of patterns . The 2
std error is , itself, 1 mm .

My plan is to clean a bit better on the back molars. The one I have
been concentrating on ( #17) is just fine

For those of you who had this type of sugery suggested, I recommend
you concentarte on cleaning your teeth better, waiting a bit, and see
if better hygiene helps.

It's a diffrent topic, and perhaps inappropriate, but I can't help but
suspect that the recommendation was influenced in part by the prospect
of modest financial gain on the part of the periodontist. I suspect at
the time the surgery recommendation the condition was border line,
and with a bit of pocket english thrown in, met the bare minimum
criteria for more extensive work. What raised my warning flags was the
insistance that it be done immediately with no explanation as to why
the rush.


--G

Fior the uininitiated.. on each side of the tooth 3 measurements are
made of pocket depth. Hence 333 means 3 measurements of 3 mm

Tooth Face Tounge
1 333 435
2 333 534
3 323 323
4 323 323
5 324 324
6 423 323
7 333 323
8 333 323
9 322 222
10 233 222
11 323 222
12 333 323
13 222 323
14 223 323
15 323 333
16



32
31 323 334
30 422 333
29 323 323
28 322 323
27 222 323
26 212 222
25 212 222
24 212 222
23 212 222
22 212 223
21 222 323
20 223 323
19
18 333 323
17 333 333

george1234 wrote:

- quote -


I had assumed so. The implication of this rationale is that if the
patient then choses to not practice adequate oral hygiene they have
accomplished just about zero.
Years ago I put this to a periodontist at NYU when I was on the
faculty. He felt that on a maintenance schedule of one recall every 3
months the bacterial flora was sufficiently disrupted that there would
be significant benefit to the patient even in the absence of oral hygiene.
I'm willing to accept that this could be true. However, all these
years later I'm not totally convinced. In any case, I was skeptical of
such a self-serving argument.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

george1234 wrote:
- quote -


....and I will.
Thanks--I find this fascinating stuff.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

On 25 Oct 2005 15:00:17 -0700, "rich[at]away32.com" <rich[at]away32.com>
wrote:

- quote -

Yes, but it is more than a single bug,
..
http://dentalschool.bu.edu/ce/spring...iles/frame.htm

Slide 12 gives you a clue as to how they classify
Slide 13 gives you an indication of the jungle down there
Slide 14 gives you a clue whree these beasts live


As near as I can make out, the whole point of preriodontal treatment
is to get your gums in good enough shape that you can take care of
them yourself.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:20:46 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldmung[at]dentaltwins.com> wrote:

- quote -


Another good place to look for info on archae is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea

--G

On 25 Oct 2005 15:00:17 -0700, "rich[at]away32.com" <rich[at]away32.com>
wrote:

- quote -

True, there is no such thing as periodontal disease ........ please do
not tell the patients though.

Joel


- quote -

Thank you all for your information on whether Periodontal Disease is
contagious.

I have concluded from your answers that Periodontal Disease is a
figment of the ADA's imagination. All you dentists don't have a clue
where it comes from.

Simple and thorough cleaning seems to eradicate it. Do that with a lung
infection.

Also, the poor sap who dismissed kissing because it does not preserve
the anerobic environment obviously needs lessons in deep tongue
kissing. :0

So, is it, or is it not bacterial????
Richard

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:

- quote -

This is helpful in that regard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monera

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

george1234 wrote:

- quote -

I was dimly aware of bacteria-like organisms that existed in extreme
conditions. I did not know that they were considered taxonomically
different from bacteria.
I may need a refresher course on taxonomy. I don't know where
rickettsiae , chlamydiae, and PPLO fit into this scheme.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

george1234 wrote:

- quote -

Yes.
BTW, bacteria associated with caries (esp. strep. mutans) are more
easily demonstrated to be transmitted orally--and that in fact this
ultimately does contribute to caries experience.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:42:12 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldmung[at]dentaltwins.com> wrote:

- quote -

It probably comes out of the Forsyth studies on microorganism in the
mouth. As the article states they hae a technique to quickly
categorize the species

"The more severe the disease, the larger the archaea population--and
that population shrank with treatments that lessened gum disease."

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:39:03 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldmung[at]dentaltwins.com> wrote:

- quote -

It does.. it says you can transmit the micro-organisms, but they will
not cause the disease unless the conditions are ripe ( DNA) for them

It's a little different from what the AAP was saying. I suspect those
subtle horse hockey purveyors make the implicit assumption that
children share the DNA of their parents, and are more likely to
develop the disease when exposed to the micro-organisms that cause the
disease in their parents.

--G

george1234 wrote:

- quote -

That's a new one on me.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

george1234 wrote:

- quote -


This actually supports my contention that periodontal disease is
unlikely to be transmitted--except via DNA. ;-)

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:22:54 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldmung[at]dentaltwins.com> wrote:


- quote -


Your point of view is similar to that stated in "Bacterial
transmission in periodontal diseases: a critical review." cited
above.. you can transmit the bacteria but it may or may not cause the
disease

BTW.. not all of it is bacteria, archaea is one of the mix

..http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../307/5717/1899

"In 2004, as part of their surveys of this crevice, Relman, Lepp, and
their colleagues discovered that some of these more troublesome
microbes weren't even bacteria. They were archaea, members of a group
of microbes best known for thriving in extreme conditions."

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:40:24 -0400, george1234
<george1234pds[at]excite.com> wrote:

- quote -

These horse hockey proponent s even managed to do a critical review


J Periodontol. 1997 May;68(5):421-31. Related Articles, Links

Bacterial transmission in periodontal diseases: a critical review.

Greenstein G, Lamster I.

Department of Periodontology, University of Medicine and Dentistry
of New Jersey, Newark, USA.

" This review paper addresses intra- and extra-familial transfer of
bacteria associated with periodontal diseases. Recent advances in
molecular biology provide sensitive methods to differentiate organisms
within the same species, thereby facilitating tracking routes of their
transmission. Evidence for the passing of microorganisms between
parents and children is particularly strong. In this regard, molecular
genetic techniques have demonstrated that if a child is colonized by a
potentially pathogenic species, then one of the parents will usually
harbor genotypically identical bacteria. The data also indicate that
transfer of bacteria between spouses occur, but it appears to happen
infrequently. Saliva appears to be a major vector for bacterial
transmission. However, the transfer of organisms does not necessarily
result in colonization or infection of the host. Furthermore,
individuals who harbor putative pathogens frequently do not manifest
any signs of periodontal disease. This is attributed to host defenses,
bacterial antagonism, and possibly lack of pathogenicity of infecting
organisms. It is concluded, based upon current evidence, that
periodontal pathogens are communicable; however, they are not readily
transmissible".

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:40:32 GMT, W_B <no_one[at]nowhere.net> wrote:

- quote -

Well... nothing like a clear opinion, but not much I can do with
that I got my horse hockey info from the misinformed flammers at the
american academy of periodontology

http://www.perio.org/consumer/families.html

"Transmission of Gum Disease Between Family Members
Periodontal (gum) disease may be passed from parents to children and
between couples, according to an article in the September 1997 issue
of the Journal of the American Dental Association. This research
concurs with other recent findings that support the association
between periodontal disease and family members.

Researchers suggest bacteria that cause periodontal disease pass
though saliva. This means that the common contact of saliva in
families puts children and couples at risk for contracting the
periodontal disease of another family member. Periodontal disease can
lead to tooth loss.

Based on this research, the American Academy of Periodontology (AAP)
recognizes that treatment of gum disease may involve entire families.
If one family member has periodontal disease, the AAP recommends that
all family members see a dental professional for a periodontal
screening. "