"Omelet" <> Since you are using a fake name and I'm too lazy to trace the
headers,
- quote -

I guess you want to get it straight from the horse's mouth? Like you never
realized that Bob's diet plan is created around his drugs, not vice-versa?

BTW, what is your real name? Where do you live? What is your social security
number? I don't respect cowards that don't post their verifiable information
on the internet.

In article <CalCi.30865$mp6.17045[at]bignews9.bellsouth.net> ,
"Senator Larry Gaye" <larrygraig[at]curb.com> wrote:

- quote -

Since you are using a fake name and I'm too lazy to trace the headers,
all I can say is "Butt the hell out shithead".

;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"Omelet" <> So you are advocating drugs in place of diet? If dietary changes
will work, why risk poisoning yourself?
- quote -

Bob understands diet differently. It starts with the drug cycles and the
food and liquids are ingested to complement the drugs.

Omelet <omp_ome...[at]gmail.com> wrote:
- quote -

Low carbing does reduce appetite. Not for everyone in the
population but it does for a large percentage. Use that
reduced appetite in those last pounds.

I suspect that in the last 10 not even the appetite reduction
still works and that a fair number will need to be hungry
during that time. I also notice that I disagree with the goal
weights of a LOT of people. Pick a goal weight below what
your body considers its ideal and the only way to get there
is hunger during the losing phase followed to endless hunger
during maintenance as well.

- quote -

If only it could be done the way it's done with insulin. Not that
a magic bullet injection can ever change anyone's habits, but
it could accelerate lose rates in folks who are doing the rest
right.

- quote -

There is a curve where the result isn't as simple as folks hope.

While out of ketosis (actually ketonuria) cutting carbs to get into
ketosis works best. But once in ketosis further cutting carbs does
little but risk T3 drop and a stall. Consider CCLL the bottom for
carbs at least half the time. Since the higher carb foods early
in the carb ladder tend to be more filling veggies, Atkins tends
to be isocaloric after Induction - The increased carb quota is
roughly offset by spontaneously eating smaller portions of fat
and/or protein. It's easy to think you're trading more carbs for
less fat at this point ...

Once in ketosis cutting protein not fat seems the next step.
Dietary fat does a better job of increasing glucagon release,
though do some research and you'll find claims that protein is
better at it so there doesn't seem to be a good scientific
consensus on this point. Or for the same total calories swap
extra fat for less protein to improve the ratio to increase
glucagon. Switching from 500 calories of pepperoni to 500
calories of lean turkey is not the way to go. Switching from
1000 calories of pepperoni to 700 calories of lean turkey, much
harder to say. Note that protein is essential so there's a point
below which reducing causes problems, but that level tends to
be much lower than what most westerners eat.

Then only cut fat to cut total calories. Deal is, when trying
to bust a stall when low carbing cutting calories becomes the
fourth thing to do - 1) Check for calorie creep and renewed
overeating. Aka correcting calorie overage not cutting calories.
2) Recalibrate ketosis and CCLL by getting out of ketosis
then back in to avoid T3 drops. 3) Work the fat to protein
ratio by cutting protein and increasing fat at the same total
calories to increase glucagon. 4) The big hammer approach
of lowering calories.

- quote -

While that is surprising before reading the original fat fast
study, it isn't surprising after reading it. It's the glucagon
drawing fat from storage that matters the most. Lower
both dietary fat and protein and you lower glucagon release.
That's a defense mechanism to lower metabolism during a
famine.

In article <1188674055.368176.255480[at]22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> ,
itazuke <john.obrien[at]itazuke.org> wrote:

- quote -

No argument there.
Note that in one of my last posts, I DID differentiate between a total
fast and the fat fast.

- quote -

Absolutely.

- quote -

For me, it's 3 days of deliberate fasting.
Not the "forgetting to eat" during a successful ketogenic dieting period.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

I deleted most of the coversation to avoid too much info to read;
however, I have had some experiences with total fasting. I agree with
most authors that it is not really a good way to lose weight, although
you could lose some depending on how long you go. Fasting by
definition is total lack of food; so people who term something a
"juice fast" or a "Fat fast" are just begging the question and are
using wrong terminology. Those things are "DIETS". A "Fast" only
includes water.

I think the real value of fasting is the self-control which is
manifested by doing it. A person who can control themselves enough to
"Fast" can also control their eating habits and are less likely to be
overweight. Incidently, fasting is actually fairly easy once you
understand the mechanisms. For me, it is only one day of hunger; or
really only maybe 1/2 a day.
John

- quote -

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0708311756340.30238[at]urchin.earth.li> ,
Tom Anderson <twic[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote:

- quote -

Or I simply mis-read it.
That happens sometimes. ;-)

- quote -

So what then is gluconeogenesis for protein usage in the liver?
I'm trying to figure out how one manages to maintain a normal serum
glucose level on a total fast.

- quote -

True. I've been able to get "pork trimmings" lately for $.97 per lb.
What the store does is take pork that fixin' to outdate, re-package it
and knock the price down and sell it as "trimming".

Some of it is shoulder or butt, but some of it is also fairly lean rib
and loin chops! I kid you not.:

http://i12.tinypic.com/4p3tqug.jpg

One cannot live on chicken alone... ;-)

I've found when I take this stuff to work (cooked of course), 8 to 10
oz. of it stuffs me for a good 6 hours.

My weight is finally starting to drop again. Slowly, but still
encouraging.

One of the real issues with low carb dieting is the damned price of meat.

- quote -

The other secret is learning to CHEW your food and eat more slowly.
"Wolfers" consume a lot more calories than taking time to enjoy a meal
as it takes a bit of time to become satiated.

I watched my BIL eat a couple of chili dogs from Der Weinershnitzel one
day when he came over to use my laser printer.

My god.

He snarfed each one down in two bites and maybe 3 seconds.
I don't think he hardly stopped to chew.

No wonder he weighs over 300 lbs... <sigh>

He's a big guy and can probably stand to weigh about 220 at most, but
he's really starting to have health problems and he knows it. It'd help
if my sister was not a "fat acceptance" buff. ;-P

I worry about them.

- quote -

<grins>

- quote -

So did you?
It's an interesting thing.
One of the docs at work introduced me to the term.

Made me want to start raising rabbits again. <G>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <1188591867.173045.169870[at]g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> ,
Doug Freyburger <dfreybur[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Ok, my bad.
I must have misunderstood.

- quote -

But still nowhere as efficient as carbs.
That's the beauty of it. ;-)

- quote -

So what do you do it you only NEED to lose 10 to 20 lbs.?
Not that that applies to many, but still...

- quote -

Cool. So lets inject Glucagon! (just kidding!)

- quote -

Very true.
In fact, if I have a good Ketone level running, I almost have to force
myself to eat. I tend to forget to eat if I'm busy with other things.

I've gone nearly two days sometimes before I remembered.

Wish I had had the will power in the past to stick to it for more than a
month at a time.

If I'd kept off all the weight I've lost over the years, there would be
nothing left of me by now. <G>

- quote -

Funny. I'd been cutting fat out more to save on total calories...
Guess that is a mistake? Probably why I keep getting stuck.

- quote -

Oddly enough, I lose weight FASTER on a fat fast than on a total fast.
(I've experimented a lot with fasting in the past. Longest was 2 weeks
and I still went to the gym).

- quote -

Neither do I, but I know it works.

- quote -

New discoveries are made nearly every day. The body is a very complex
chemical factory.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <iW%Bi.132403$kK1.82679[at]newsfe14.phx> ,
"Hard Bop Drums" <nospam[at]hardbopdrums.com> wrote:

- quote -

So you are advocating drugs in place of diet?
If dietary changes will work, why risk poisoning yourself?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <pb0Ci.126$kI5.68[at]trnddc08> , "hanson" <hanson[at]quick.net>
wrote:

- quote -

For once the crossposted groups are all relevant. <g>

- quote -

Dude...
Don't go inhaling H2! It'll combine with O in the lungs and drown you!

The whole idea is to lose body fat and keep on muscle weight.
In order to do that, you have to maintain a positive N balance.

The gas you want to be inhaling is N2O.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"Tom Anderson" <twic[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0708311756340.30238[at]urchin.earth.li...
- quote -

That is some cool shit you guys are talking about here,
(in sci. chem). Carry on.
Let me ask you on the same general subject of
fat/calory conversion/burning and its consequences, etc.:

What will Hydrogen gas do to the human metabolism
when H2 is inhaled on a daily and prolonged basis
(with N2 at a safe sub-explosive ration)?.
Will H2 react in the blood stream at all?
If yes,
will H2 change the pH of the plasma dangerously?,
will H2 induce other unpleasant or dangerous systemic
changes?
If no,
will H2 provide sufficient usable caloric energy that a
Hydrogen weight loss regimen (replacing solid food)
could be advocated?
hanson

Tom Anderson" <twic[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0708311822330.30238[at]urchin.earth.li...
- quote -

Tom,
Lyle had great ideas, but I will never be a believer in Ketogenic diets. I
have used balanced calorie diets myself and with others for years with great
results. The key to all of this is consistency and hard work. I have veins
shows in my abs right now and am eating junk food once a day or so. Once you
get yourself down to where you are really lean, you no longer have to kill
yourself. Remember too, the more muscle you have, the more calories you can
take in.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

"Omelet" <omp_omelet[at]gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmp_omelet-0CDB71.20573830082007[at]news.giganews.com...
- quote -


Carb loading does not work in bodybuilding nor in endurance events. That was
proven a long time ago. Many bodybuilders still use it because they don't
know how to properly dehydrate themselves and stay full before a contest.
That's where Lasix, alcohol and other goodies come in! :-)

--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

Tom Anderson <t...[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote:
- quote -

Tom Anderson posted with the statement that "fatty acids" don't
get converted to glucose, and that's true. I pointed out that "fat"
is made of more than fatty acids and the other part does get
converted to glucose. Small difference in terminology, roughly
10% difference in energy that comes through glucose.

- quote -

Here's the fun part - The energy yield per carbon atom of glycerol
through glucose seems higher than either of the two paths fatty
acids take (acetyl-CoA or ketones), so even though the mass is
5ish% the energy is 10ish%.

- quote -

That's part of the low carb advantage, but that isn't the so-called
"metabolic advantage" stressed by Dr Atkins. (He failed to mention
it is roughly proportional with amount to lose and hits zero once
there's 10-20 pounds left to lose). Low carbing keep the metabolism
up somewhat compared to low fatting and low calorie. Five percent
difference in the first 6 months, none after that comparing low carb
to low fat but those studies include calorie restrictions for low
fatters
so it might be a little more than 5%.

Low carb tends to increase glucagon levels and glucagon draws
fat out of storage. Whether those excess calories are burned
through higher rest metabolism or wasted through ketone
evaporation doesn't matter all that much - More fat pulled from
storage is what almost everyone diets for in the first place.

- quote -

This is a much more important feature of low carbing to me
than the metabolic advantage. Many people aren't hungry while
low carbing.

- quote -

More specifically *both*. The high fat percentage of low carbing
triggers higher glucagon levels which draws stored fat out.
There's a calorie range where eating more fat causes more
stored fat to be withdrawn, and that calorie range is close to
the common guideline of (current weight in pounds * 10 calories).
Even better, while fat has roughly the same filling effect as
protein calorie for calorie, fat tends to keep hunger from coming
back longer than protein calorie for calorie. Eating more fat
doesn't end up equaling eating more calories - It ends up
meaning eating less protein. Very much the opposite of
obvious in several ways.

- quote -

I've read statements that the body can only store a couple of days
worth of amino acid needs before it starts cannibalizing muscle.
I know that the body's glycogen stores work that way, but folks
on a fast seem to do better than I think they should. If the body
really did start consuming its own muscle, I think starvation would
lead to muscular weakness more than it does. So while I have
no idea what sort of stored protein a body has, I think it's got to
be more than that couple of days in the claims. Note how weak
my logic in this belief is and how lacking my supporting data is.

- quote -

Yes it is true on isocaloric diets. The study that was 1 of Dr Atkins
2 drivers to design his plan was a study of subjects fed 1000 calorie
diets of 90% carb, protein or fat with the control group on a water
only
fast. The 90% fat group lost more than the 90% group and somehow
also lost less lean.

And the studies that show this are very surprising. I have no idea
what the mechanism is.

- quote -

That's the closest I've seen to a mechanism to explain the
observed data.

Tom Anderson <twic[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote:
- quote -

I blame those damn foreigners for spreading the usage "bonded" in
place of "bound" when referring to chemical bonds.

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0708311822330.30238[at]urchin.earth.li> ,
Tom Anderson <twic[at]urchin.earth.li> wrote:

- quote -

Mostly green ones with leafy greens being the best.
You know, those "negative calorie" high fiber ones. ;-)

Lettuce, cabbage, endive, broccoli, spinach, chard, celery, to name a
few of my personal favorites.

- quote -

Yes.

- quote -

Try tossing in some Bok Choy and/or chinese cabbage.
Mushrooms work too. Chitin is not digestible by the human organism, and
they are high in trace minerals.

- quote -

Cool.

Theoretically, so does Clenbuterol, but it's not legal. ;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Omelet wrote:

- quote -

What sort of vegetables can you eat on PSMF? Whenever i've tried to lose
weight, filling up on green veg has always been helpful. The best thing is
oriental broths made with leafy veg, stock and/or soy sauce and chillies:
basically, a bowl of hot water and celluose, contaminated with salt,
glutamic acid and capsaicin!

I keep typing PMSF instead of PSMF - something quite different, but which
also protects protein:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...il/SIGMA/P7626

tom

--
10 PARTY : GOTO 10

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Omelet wrote:

- quote -

Fat *mostly* doesn't convert back into glucose. I may have skimped on
exegesis here.

What it comes down to is that one molecule of fat is made of one molecule
of glycerol bonded to three molecules of fatty acid. The glycerol has
three carbon atoms, and the fatty acids 16-20ish each, so the fatty acids
make up ~95% of the fat molecule; when talking about fat, we tend to
forget about the glycerol and just treat it as a bunch of fatty acids.

Anyway, fatty acids can't be made into glucose, only burned or made into
ketone bodies, but glycerol can. However, it's a rather small amount - you
need two glycerols to make a glucose, so you get half a glycerol per
molecule of fat, which also gives you three molecules of fatty acid, worth
8-10 turns of the Krebs cycle each.

- quote -

Yebbut you don't use the protein to make glucose, you break it down
straight to acetyl CoA and burn it. It's still less efficient than fat,
but better than 50%, i think.

I think this metabolic efficiency stuff is a red herring. It's not like
you, or your body, eats a specific number of calories of whatever food and
then stops, and protein's better for you because less of those calories
become available; you eat as much as it takes to stop you being hungry, so
if protein was less good at stopping you being hungry, you'd eat more of
it, and end up with more calories in your blood.

Rather, the amount you eat is decided by your body's nutrient-sensing
machinery. High-protein/fat diets make you satiated using less calories
than high-carb diets because, AIUI, the machinery is geared to detecting
protein and fat as indicators of food intake. That's the secret - if you
eat rich food, you eat less of it than if you eat wholesome food. There's
no metabolic magic going on, just some sleight of hypothalamus!

- quote -

Dammit, that's what i just said, only a quarter the length. CURSE YOU,
FREYBURGER!

- quote -

Either.

- quote -

What would constitute non-muscle lean? Glycogen, i guess, but that goes
early; protein in other tissues? You know, i have no idea how the body
uses, or regulates its use of, protein in various different tissues for
energy while fasting. I'd guess (well, hope), that it takes the skeletal
muscles down to a bare minimum before it starts burning the organs, and
that it then starts with the liver and spleen before things like heart,
lungs and brain!

- quote -

I doubt it's big enough in anyone to make a difference in a diet lasting a
week or more.

- quote -

Is this true when the diets are isocaloric? If so, it's very surprising; i
would have thought protein would generate a stronger protein-preserving
anabolic stimulus than fat.

Mind you, there is some evidence that fat consumption promotes protein
synthesis - someone posted a paper a while back showing that drinking
whole milk led to more muscle protein synthesis than an isocaloric dose of
whey protein. They showed it wasn't down to insulin levels, too; it sort
of suggests there's either a direct effect of blood FFA on protein
synthesis in muscle, or that there's an as yet unknown anabolic hormone
that's produced in response to fat consumption.

- quote -

Sounds like a hoot.

tom

--
10 PARTY : GOTO 10

In article <1188507334.167097.24410[at]z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> ,
Doug Freyburger <dfreybur[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

I thought it was said that fat would not convert back to glucose?
Now I'm confoozed. <G>

- quote -

Hence the concept of "metabolic advantage" with low carb diets that some
scientists don't seem to understand.

- quote -

<fixed the word "glucode" <G> >

Body fat or dietary fat?

I presume you mean dietary fat.

Hence the accelerated weight loss I experience with "fat fasting".

Too bad that diet is such a bitch. It'd be a panacea.

- quote -

And how great your glycogen storage capacity.

- quote -

See my previous post.

- quote -

Due to the supposed caloric content, it fascinates me that one can lose
weight faster using pure fat than pure protein, or a mix of both.
Fat = 9 calories per gram
Protein = 4 calories per gram

Yet, you really will see a drastic difference in loss of body weight
consuming 1,000 calories of fat per day (with very limited "other"
calorie sources) than eating 1,000 calories worth of protein per day.

It's fascinating.

The length of time you can keep it up tho' is very limited and you have
to wonder what the drawbacks can be. Body fat loss vs. lean muscle loss
with a deficit of amino acids for instance.

All other things being equal of course using vitamin supplements.

- quote -

That is due to it's sheer inefficiency compared to the body metabolizing
carbs.

- quote -

I know that from experience. Unfortunately.

Want some fun? Google for "rabbit starvation".
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <XfKBi.50955$Lu.15947[at]bignews8.bellsouth.net> ,
"Wally West" <wallywest[at]curb.com> wrote:

- quote -

Yes.

I've found I can maintain better ketosis if I go ahead and have some
carbs every couple of weeks.

That very thing is designed into Lyle's PSMF diet.

I've done fat fasting and can lose about 1/2 lb. per day doing it.
Atkins recommended that you not do it for more than 5 days (iirc, I've
not read his books in awhile) as it's nutritionally deficient. I did it
for 2 weeks one time and lost 10 lbs before going for some protein and
veggies.

It's hard as hell to stay on that thing tho' as you are always hungry.
1,000 calories of fat is not a lot of food.

Part of that weight loss tho' is muscle glycogen depletion which is why
when you DO indulge in carbs after strict low carbing, you will see a
sudden weight gain (usually about 5 lbs. in my case) due to water being
pulled into muscles along with the glycogen storage.

This is why carb depletion is done prior to a contest then you "carb up"
the day before the actual competition. The increase in fluid retention
inside of the muscle body is often overdone giving you some increased
muscle hardness for the stage.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson