On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:59:26 -0800, "ironjustice[at]aol.com"
<ironjustice[at]aol.com> wrote:

- quote -


Ok, I was not addressing that. I was addressing whether PC = PA (more
on this below).

Let's break that into two questions.

First, let's assume you ate some phytic acid (PA) along with the
peanut butter (PB). Would this work? Logically, it might. However,
there are several barriers/limitations.

1. How much PA would you need? Hard to tell, but looks like they used
about 1 part PA per 100 parts PB. That is a lot of PA!

2. How long does it take? They did a 1 hour treatment. People do not
keep the PB in their mouth for an hour (except for what sticks to the
roof).

3. PB is thick (viscous). They diluted it, in buffer. Contact between
PA and PB in the mouth would be poor.

4. And then what happens? Their claim is that complex forms, which
they remove. But eating them together... there is no easy way to
remove the complex. So you would simply swallow the complex. Does that
help? Who knows.

From those points... if someone wants to try it, fine. It is unlikely
to work very well, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Now, the second question... Above I assumed that we ate some PA. Do we
need to, or is it in our "spit"? I would be surprised if there is
_any_ PA in saliva. And it would be astonishing if the huge amounts
needed were there. Do you have any reference that addresses this... PA
in saliva. (Not PC! PC is not relevant.)


Ok, that should address what you asked above.


- quote -

Ok, fair enough. Then I won't respond to the rest.

But remember the paper you posted really did use PA = inositol
hexaphosphate. They say so explicitly. So PC or lecithin are not
relevant.

The question you ask above is a reasonable question, and is easy
enough to test, at various levels. I think my prediction (that it
won't work) is good (or I wouldn't have made it :-) ), but it is
subject to testing. I have given the reasons for my prediction, and
they are based on what is actually in the paper you referred us to
(which I got the day after the first exchange.)


bob

On Nov 13, 9:24 pm, Bob <bbx107....[at]excite.XYZ.com> wrote:That is why
I explained it in detail, and showed you sources <<

Back to square .. one ..

The original article said .. "Our objective was to determine if phytic
acid forms insoluble
complexes with major peanut allergens" ..

YOU then said "The conditions used in the work below
really have no relevance to what would be obtained in the body."

Then you say .. "They take a tiny amount of peanut
butter, suspend it in large amount of buffer, making a slurry, and
treat with phytic acid for an hour. That does not sound very
practical. The mouth is not a very good reactor for a reliable
treatment with viscous food."

That is where I believe the .. **issue** / question became confused ..
and the question which WAS and still IS ..

Would the simple placing of the peanut butter into the slurry / saliva
mixed with phytic acid / MOUTH .. be the **same** as placing the
phytic acid and peanut butter into a testtube / slurry?

You say NOT .. and I say .. it would be.

You have NOT .. addressed that other than to say .. "The mouth is not
a very good reactor for a reliable
treatment with viscous food" .. and that I believe is NOT a good
**enough** answer.

Because .. logically IF .. phytic acid IS .. in my spit .. it is no
different if my spit was in my mouth OR .. in a testtube .. it is
STILL my spit mixed with peanut butter and since my spit is FULL of
phytic acid .. then they ARE the same. Spit mixed with peanut butter
and phytic acid. The **amount** OF .. phytic acid IN my spit may be
questionable but the mix of the slurry / spit and phytic acid IS the
same .. IE: spit mixed with phytic acid.

The rest of the thread really isn't .. pertinent TO the original ..
question.

It may be to the whole scenario of whether phytic acid is REALLY
phytin or whether phytin is really phosphatidylcholine .. or .. or ..
or ..

The question remains unanswered .. which is .. "is spit mixed with
phytic acid in the mouth any **different** from phytic acid mixed with
spit in a testtube" ..

Phosphatidylcholine is a word which is bantered about .. in different
circles it seems / chemistry versus nutrition .. and in this case used
as a word to denote .. **lecithin**.

So in the context of phosphatidylcholine BEING lecithin / nutrition
wise .. not chemistry wise .. the reaction .. spit in mouth and spit
in testtube .. is still the SAME .. **slurry**.

Because in nutrition phosphatidylcholine is considered to BE ..
lecithin and lecithin CONTAINS phytic acid.

The question being .. "the slurry created by the researchers / spit in
a **testtube** which contains phytic acid .. is it not the same as ..
spit containing phytic acid in the **mouth**,, " ..

Obviously it .. is.

As to whether phytin IS lecithin OR phytic acid .. would leave one
WITH .. you .
Chemists.
IF the seller says it IS .. and it has NEVER been tested .. which
really doesn't need testing because I doubt very much if these back
yard chemists REALLY 'went out of their way' to .. actually CHANGE the
chemical makeup OF their product .. much at all to CREATE this
substance which they sell as .. "Phytin".
You 'say' "Phytin IS different from IP6 / phytic acid" .. and that is
based ON .. ?

Conjecture .. because as you say .. "it has never been tested by any
credible researcher" ..

The choline end of it came later AFTER the question .. the ORIGINAL
question became somehow .. confused.

The correct phrasing of THAT should have been .. lecithin is phytic
acid .. phytic acid is phytin .. and phytin is lecithin and
lecithin .. in .. **nutrition circles** .. is .. called
phosphatidylcholine amongst other names.

So .. getting back to the original question .. this time .. sans the
phosphatidylcholine WORD .. is spit with phytic acid IN it .. in the
mouth .. any different FROM phytic acid in spit IN a .. testtube . ?

Obviously it is.. not.


Who loves ya.
Tom


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On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 05:17:50 -0800, ironjustice
<teamtanner[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

Right. That is why I explained it in detail, and showed you sources,
and how to find more sources.


Do you have any other source that suggests phytin is called lecithin?
But lecithin is probably the problem term here, used in various ways
by different people. Certainly that one "dot com" site you had should
not be relied on.


There is absolutely no question... phytic acid and phosphatidyl
choline (PC) are very different. The question came up because of the
intermediate terms; and I am willing to bet the usage you found is not
common. Regardless of their usage, there is no excuse for confusing
phytic acid and PC.

You are trying to make several connections below (and before). Some of
them are correct. But one is not: phytic acid and phosphatidyl choline
(PC) are very different. Be sure to separate the issues; be cautious
about generalizing.

....

- quote -

That's fine, but has nothing to do with the question at hand. See next
point before commenting on this.


- quote -

Yes, yes. Several papers show that all the various chemicals can be
used as sources of phosphate. That is fine. They all contain
phosphate, and they are broken down to release the phosphate.

That does not make them the same; it merely means that, for some
purposes, all can be used as phosphate sources. They are different --
very different. They may be equivalent for one purpose (phosphate
source), but not for another. Don't over-generalize.


Lecithin (PC) can be used as a choline source, as you noted above.
Phytic acid cannot be used as a choline source, and PC cannot be used
as an inositol source. (Inositol is the building block of phytic acid.
Phytic acid is inositol with six phosphates on it. Having that many
phosphates so close together is (probably) why it worked for removing
the peanut allergen.)


- quote -

They all work as phosphate sources. They are NOT equivalent for other
purposes.

The paper you originally posted used phytic acid, and they say what it
is. If you want to try doing this with PC, you are welcome to try it.
But as a chemist, I can assure you that it is rather easy to predict
that PC will (almost certainly) not work.


- quote -

Something got lost in the translation (or memory or context). I am a
chemist, and it is a simple fact, which you can look up for yourself,
that phytic acid and PC are not the same. I would expect even students
in an introductory course to be able to explain that.

Perhaps your chemist friend explained how they both could be phosphate
sources, but it is not credible that a chemist told you they were the
same, or interchangable for any purpose. That is simply wrong. Go look
it up. No reason to believe me; just go look it up.


- quote -

PC does indeed contain choline and phosphates. No disagreement about
that.

Phytic acid does not [contain choline -- and choline (any form) would
not work for the paper you posted. Ask the authors. Just email them
and ask.]. Just go look it up. Don't rely on someone telling you; go
look it up. I gave you links, to good sites; you can find more,
easily.


Again, I think the key point is that you are over-generalizing.
Several points you make are correct. But some are not; separate them
out.

bob

On Nov 12, 6:47 pm, Bob <bbx107....[at]excite.XYZ.com> wrote: Bottom
line, you may have had some reason for making the connection you did,
but it is not correct. <<

Well you 'saying' it is not .. correct .. doesn't make it .. so.

Lecithin is given to people PREFERABLY because .. ? .. it raises
acetylcholine .. acetyl-choline .. acetyl-CHOLINE .. in the brain ..

They give you choline to raise the .. choline .. to raise the CHOLINE
in the brain ..

Now .. lecithin is full of .. phosphates .. and it raises .. choline
in the brain and actually is the PREFERRED .. **method** TO raise
the .. choline .. in the brain.
Phosphatidylcholine .. is full of phosphates and it contains ..
choline .. and when administered I would bet it raises .. choline in
the brain.

Actually they used three different **sources** of phosphates .. and
they ALL worked .. NOT because they were "all different" .. did they
use them .. they used them because they are all USED as sources of
phosphates.

They .. **figured** the three different sources of phosphates would ..
**do** the job NOT saying .. "these are all technically very
different from each other and so we are testing them all " .. "they
said we are using them because they are ALL .. **used** to raise ..
phosphates / sources of phosphates.

YOU can .. 'say' they used all 'different' but the fact remains they
ALL .. work.

You can .. 'say' they are all different because .. YOU .. have looked
at their chemical makeup and have decided / dedeuced they are all ..
different .. but .. this was proposed to ME .. over ten years ago that
they ARE the same .. and POINTED out TO .. me that they ARE .. all the
same .. and POINTED out to me BY a chemist.

Sooo .. say all you want but .. doesn't make it .. 'so' / or more
technically .. "a chemist called me up and said do you know that
phytic acid and lecithin are one and the same ..?"

All of them worked..

So .. the take home message IS .. lecithin raises choline in the
brain .. and contains phosphates .. phytic acid raises choline in the
brain and contains phosphates .. phytin raises choline in the brain
and contains phosphates ..

Now YOU .. 'see' a .. difference IN those three different .. names ..
BUT .. since they all seem to DO the same thing .. sound the same ..
are CALLED the same .. means .. to anyone watching .. 'coincidences'
might think that YOU are attempting to .. lie TO them ..

But since you are just .. ignorant / uninformed .. one can dedeuce no
'ill' will is involved just .. simple .. ignorance .. and therefore
can be .. disregarded WITH the SAME ignorance / misunderstanding ..
BUT .. **stll** GETTING the job DONE .. irregardless OF .. acceptance
OF .. a .. 'possible difference' amongst .. the three or four ..
substances.

Lecithin is used BECAUSE of its' .. phosphates and choline .. phytic
acid is used because of its' phosphates .. phytin is used because of
its phosphates and I suppose just looking at the WORD
phosphatidylcholine would make one SAY to you .. "buddy I might be
from Texas .. but if you think that you are going to TELL me or try to
convince me that phosphatidylcholine does NOT contain .. phosphates or
choline .. must make you think this good old boy is ..
**stupid** .. ?"

I believe that IS precisely what you are saying.

"Phosphatidylcholine .. is NOT the same as a substance which
contains .. phosphates and choline."

Yep that is what you are trying to say .. IN the face of chemists
who .. agree that ... phosphatidylcholine is the same as lecithin
which contains phosphates and raises choline in the brain.

- quote -

wider
meaning than I know about.
bob <<

Ignorance.. ?

Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:04:57 -0800, "ironjustice[at]aol.com"
<ironjustice[at]aol.com> wrote:

- quote -

Thanks for giving a reference. I see where you are coming from.
However, that does not change the answer; phytic acid is not
phosphatidyl choline -- not even close.



Phytic acid and phosphatidyl choline are both _specific_ chemical
names. No ambiguity on these. You can look up their structures. Look
them up in your own biochem book, or at:
http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fp162.htm
phytic acid
http://www.bmolchem.wisc.edu/courses...sec1/503-2.htm
phosphatidyl choline

You will see that these two chemicals are quite distinct.


Now, phytin is a trade name and lecithin is a generic name. Phytin
indeed is (a form of) phytic acid. Lecithin is a name used for
preparations from various organisms (originally bird egg). It is
commonly considered to be largely phosphatidyl choline. The fact that
people also use the term vegetable lecithin should be a clue that it
is not really the same as lecithin.

Now, the site you gave does indeed say "Phytin (known as vegetable
lecithin)".

I think the simplest answer is that that statement is just wrong. It
is also possible that the term vegetable lecithin has taken on a wider
meaning than I know about. Nevertheless, what is absolutely clear is
that Phytic acid and phosphatidyl choline -- both well-defined names
-- refer to very different chemicals. This is basic chemistry, and not
disputable.


One way to see this is to google on
phytin lecithin
Several of the first hits make it clear that they are different. As an
example:
"Organic phosphorus compounds as a phosphorus source for higher ...P
as sodium glycerophosphate or lecithin or phytin. There were. three
replications in each treatment. ..... of phytin, lecithin and sodium
glycerophosphate. ...
www.springerlink.com/index/Q67274L334463135.pdf - Similar pages"

Obviously, that would make no sense if lecithin and phytin were the
same.


Further, did you read the paper you posted originally? It gives the
structure for their phytic acid, and it is NOT phosphatidyl choline.


Bottom line, you may have had some reason for making the connection
you did, but it is not correct.


bob

- quote -

Since YOU cannot understand simple sht .. means?
THAT is .. **typical** for .. YOU.

FACT .. phytin IS phytic.
FACT .. phytin IS lecithin.
FACT .. lecithin IS phosphatidylcholine.
FACT .. phytic IS .. phosphatidylcholine.

Is it really.. that .. difficult to .. understand?

Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


- quote -

"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ[at]excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:2jofj3po72spc344gfvg3aq7l9h6b4o86e[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

That would be typical for him.

On Nov 11, 9:20 pm, Bob <bbx107....[at]excite.XYZ.com> wrote: Not only is
the statement above wrong, but there is nothing at the link you give
to support the statement. <<

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Phosphatidylcholine is lecithin and vegetable lecithin is phytin.
Then **obviously** phytic acid IS phosphatidylcholine because .. ? ..
phytin IS phytic acid.

Using science.


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

- quote -


- quote -

Phosphatidylcholine is .. vegetable lecithin.
Phytic acid is phytin.
Phytin = lecithin = phosphatidylcholine = phytic acid

http://www.phytin.com/
What is Phytin?
Phytin (known as vegetable lecithin)


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:31:06 -0800, "ironjustice[at]aol.com"
<ironjustice[at]aol.com> wrote:


- quote -


Follow-up...

Not only is the statement above wrong, but there is nothing at the
link you give to support the statement.

bob

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:31:06 -0800, "ironjustice[at]aol.com"
<ironjustice[at]aol.com> wrote:

- quote -

No, that is just wrong.

They say what phytic acid is at the start of the paper, and what they
say is correct. It has absolutely nothing to do with choline, and is
structurally unrelated to fatty acids.

And as noted, phytic acid has toxicity problems (as they mention), so
one needs great care using it.

bob

- quote -

Phytic acid is found in .. fatty acids .. short-chain fatty acids.

- quote -

Which you do by eating a vegetarian diet which contain those short-
chain fatty acids / phosphatidylcholine / phytic acid.

- quote -

Phytic acid IS phosphatidylcholine / liquid form OF phytic acid.

http://groups.google.com.bd/group/sc...cc69af3a93acfb

Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk




- quote -

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 04:06:59 -0800, ironjustice
<ironjustice[at]cashette.com> wrote:

- quote -

ok. Begging not needed, but we do need some facts.


- quote -

Why is fatty acid content relevant? Nothing about it in the paper.


- quote -


There wouldn't be any phytic acid around unless you ate some. It is
not a normal part of humans -- and has toxicity problems, so any use
would have be with great care.

What does phosphatidylcholine have to do with it? Nothing, as near I
can tell from the article.


Did you actually read what they did? They take a tiny amount of peanut
butter, suspend it in large amount of buffer, making a slurry, and
treat with phytic acid for an hour. That does not sound very
practical. The mouth is not a very good reactor for a reliable
treatment with viscous food.


They do wonder whether it might be possible to work out some
pre-treatment of the peanuts to reduce allergen content before
marketing the product -- ie, during manufacturing, where it could be
done under controlled conditions. Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

It would probably be easier to breed out the allergens.

bob


- quote -

On Nov 9, 4:06 am, ironjustice <ironjust...[at]cashette.com> wrote: if
there was phytic acid IN the mouth / phosphatidlycholine in the
saliva .. then .. one might hypothesize this to be a possible way
to neutralized the peanut allergen.. <<

"A greater salivary concentration of alpha-linolenic acid "

Fatty acid profile of human saliva: a possible indicator of dietary
fat intake.
Autores: Adriana B Actis, Nilda R Perovic, Daniela Defagó, Cecilia
Beccacece, Aldo R Eynard
Língua: Eng.
Data: 15-12-2004
Jornal: Archives of Oral Biology (0003-9969)
Release: Arch Oral Biol. 2005 Jan;50(1):1-6

Abstract:

OBJECTIVE:
Since conventional food questionnaires are not precise in assessing
the dietary fatty acids, the purpose of this study was to determine
the relationship between the salivary fatty acid profile and the
alimentary habits of two different groups in an attempt to develop a
more reliable way to determine the lipidic intake.

DESIGN:
Twenty adults of both sexes, with mixed (M) or vegetarian (V) diets
were studied. Data about the fat intake were obtained by means of a
Food Frequency Questionnaire (FFQ) and the presence of the main
salivary fatty acids was determined by gas chromatography.

RESULTS:
A greater salivary concentration of alpha-linolenic acid (18:3 n-3)
(2.82) was found in V than in M subjects (1.65) (p = 0.001), whilst
arachidonic acid (20:4 n-6) was lower in V (3.93) than in M (4.52) (p
= 0.045). The same difference regarding arachidonic acid was observed
in the dietary fatty acid intake, also showing a significant
correlation between its dietary and salivary levels in vegetarian
subjects.

CONCLUSIONS:
These results show that salivary arachidonic acid, relevant for their
eicosanoid production related to the tumourigenesis process and
cardiovascular diseases, is influenced by dietary fats.


Copyright: Archives of Oral Biology

Instituto de Biología Celular, Facultad de Ciencias Médicas,
Universidad Nacional de Córdoba, Haya de la Torre y Enrique Barros,
Ciudad Universitaria, 5000


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
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DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
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- quote -

On Nov 8, 6:48 pm, Bob <bbx107....[at]excite.XYZ.com> wrote:The
conditions used in the work below
really have no relevance to what would be obtained in the body <<

I would beg to differ ..

Say .. hypothetically .. the fatty acid content of the body .. DOES
change when presented with different fatty acid .. intake.

Soo .. the simple placing of the peanut butter in the mouth would NOW
be paced into the milieu .. OF .. the mouth.
Sooo .. if there was phytic acid IN the mouth / phosphatidlycholine in
the saliva .. then .. one might hypothesize this to be a possible way
to neutralized the peanut allergen.. ?


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk




- quote -

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:06:57 -0800, ironjustice
<ironjustice[at]cashette.com> wrote:

- quote -

There is no way to predict that. The conditions used in the work below
really have no relevance to what would be obtained in the body. And if
a complex did occur, the question would be what the body did with it.
It could make things better -- or worse.

Easily tested in a mouse, if someone thought it worthwhile.

(I did not read the paper beyond what you included below. But it is
clear from what you posted that this has no relevance to in vivo
conditions.)

bob



- quote -

So .. would an increase in this phytic acid / lecithin /
phosphatidylcholine in the body ALSO reduce this allergen ..
response .. ?

J Agric Food Chem. 2007 Oct 31;55(22):9054-8. Epub 2007 Oct 10. Links
Effects of phytic Acid on peanut allergens and allergenic properties
of extracts.
Chung SY, Champagne ET.
sychung[at]srrc.ars.usda.gov.

Phytic acid would form soluble and insoluble complexes with proteins.
Our objective was to determine if phytic acid forms insoluble
complexes with major peanut allergens, and if such reaction results in
a peanut extract with a lower level of soluble allergens and
allergenic property. Extracts from raw and roasted peanuts were
treated with and without phytic acid at various pH values and then
analyzed by SDS-PAGE and a competitive inhibition ELISA (ciELISA). The
ciELISA measured IgE binding using a pooled serum from peanut-allergic
individuals. Results showed that phytic acid formed complexes with the
major peanut allergens (Ara h 1 and Ara h 2), which were insoluble in
acidic and neutral conditions. Succinylation of the allergens
inhibited complex formation, indicating that lysine residues were
involved. A 6-fold reduction in IgE binding or allergenic potency of
the extract was observed after treatment with phytic acid. It was
concluded that phytic acid formed insoluble complexes with the major
peanut allergens, and resulted in a peanut extract with reduced
allergenic potency. Application of phytic acid to a peanut butter
slurry presented a similar result, indicating that phytic acid may
find use in the development of hypoallergenic peanut-based products.

PMID: 17927201 [PubMed - in process]


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
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