On Jun 13, 10:06 am, "mike V" <mi...[at]spammedagain.com> wrote:
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On Jun 13, 10:06 am, "mike V" <mi...[at]spammedagain.com> wrote:
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Mike, as I look closer, it seems more like orphaned orangutans are
being trained to fish at the rescue center rather than adapting to
fish in natural habitat. In the last message I wrote:

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Correction: orangutan did NOT sharpen a stick. "The orangutan used one
of the fishermen's poles to try and spear the fish as they swam by but
didn't quite have the necessary dexterity. Instead he used the stick
to hook out fallen fruit as it floated by."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...eaorang128.xml

The title of the article is misleading: "Orangutan goes fishing with
sharpened stick"
I thought the orangutan sharpened the stick so this seemed like
something new. It seems now like orangutans are eating fruit IN SPITE
of human influence instead of naturally adapting to fish.

For the purpose of honesty, the title should read: "Biologists try to
save money on Orangutan food & try to attract another fast food
restaurant to sponsor the next episode of Orangutan Island by trying
to teach orangutans to fish."

Although chimps/orangutans are more intelligent than macaques, all
chimp & orangutan subspecies are endangered and continue to be hunted
in deforested habitat. Macaques are more urbanized and omnivorous and
I guess you could say more adaptable since they haven't been
devastated as much by human activity/urban sprawl.
http://www.wii.gov.in/envis/primates...ge30bonnet.pdf
The rehabilitation program at Borneo Orangutan Survival Foundation's
Orangutan Island, may help the survival of orangutans before any
chance of adapting to fish. And Jane Goodall may save chimps before
they (would) adapt to fish.

Maybe more habitat loss is needed in Borneo to increase orangutans
selective pressure for sharper dexterity but there just aren't enough
orangutans or chimps left for this test.
http://www.whole-systems.org/extinctions.html
And this wave of extinction is faster than the previous one. We
haven't even finished the last interglacial period from the current
Ice Age.

http://www.rewilding.org/thesixthgreatextinction.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Madagascar.gif

So assisting apes to fish may help them survive the third wave of the
Pleistocene-Holocene Extinction Event, since adapting to human
activity is at least as important as adapting within natural habitat
now.

Chris

"crisology" <crisology[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:c0275ed4-26eb-4251-8bc9-5d06acad36d2[at]m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
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Hi Chris:
Interesting.
Nothing is really new. Mother always taught me that you could catch more
termites with honey than with vinegar!
If some primates have been shown to be capable of symbolic communication
skills comparable to human, how long can it be before bait fishing from a
floating log are reported? :-)
MikeV

On Jun 12, 7:03 am, "mike V" <mi...[at]spammedagain.com> wrote:
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"Other primates with fishing expertise include Japanese macaques,
chacma baboons, olive baboons, chimpanzees and orangutans."

Has anyone found any information about chimp "fishing expertise"?

I already know the orangutan "fishing expertise" was sensationalized.
The orangutan fishing video premiered last year on Orangutan Island TV
show, sponsored by Long John Silvers. The show featured endangered,
orphaned, extirpated orangutans (normally nomadic but conditioned to
mimic more frequently as an extended family out of habitat) on
isolated island still partially fed by biologists. Domesticated
orangutan (Jupiter) took two bites of a trapped fish waiting in tide
pool (normally without natural predators). In the artificial setting
another orangutan mimicked Jupiter. The commentator exclaimed, "We're
watching evolution right before our eyes!" After a question about how
human teeth resembled orangutan's, Long John Silver commercial
followed. That seemed to be the extent of the pescetarian behavior but
now I see the link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/
earth/2008/04/28/eaorang128.xml
and this shows a more ambitious orangutan attempting to mimic human
fishing and he sharpened the stick first.

I wouldn't doubt a chimp or two has been documented fishing as they
use honey on their sticks to fish termites but I just can't find
anything on it yet.

Chris

On Jun 12, 8:03 pm, "mike V" <mi...[at]spammedagain.com> wrote:
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Ingesting the whole fish in raw is different from consuming the
refined oil. Also not sure what part of the fish the monkies prefer
for eating. Wild "free range" fish is also different from the farmed
grain-fed crap having less fat I guess.

Taka

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...amonkey111.xml

mikev